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Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
05-27-2018, 11:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2018 11:29 PM by LunaMoo.)
Post: #46
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
I heard of it, but there are many generations of "icore" processors, each with slightly different performance and the oldest ones are pretty poor compared to the latest ones running at same clocks not to mention new ones are usually clocked higher and go above 4ghz without overclocking.

No, requirements aren't ridiculous, cpu's aren't build to render graphics, they are not optimized for it and as such it takes a really fast cpu to render game's graphics especially something like a fighting game with many layers and tiny sprites, on the other hand rendering graphics via software rasterizer makes certain effects and tricks pretty easy to display compared to hardware rendering apis where the same thing might be impossible.

And again no, this game never worked correctly outside of software rendering, the hackish option was just showing everything, it was a mess and far from "ok", just because it made the game playable for some desperate people by showing characters doesn't mean it was worth keeping, that option was on a to-be-removed list for far too long, but just like other dangerous hacks that made some people happy in the past it had to go and will never return.

You are free to use outdated PPSSPP version if using the broken hack makes you happy, PPSSPP was not made by m$ and does not include forced updates.

Edit: Oh and also you're not correct by calling it "just a PSP game", it's actually a very old game from different console generation which was at least partially emulated to run on PSP, but it does NOT work like a psp game and certainly wasn't written for PSP which causes all it's rendering problems.

http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=6594 - Custom PPSSPP Shaders!
http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=3590&pid=117172#pid117172 - simple CE scripts to help creating CWCheats,
https://github.com/LunaMoo/PPSSPP_workarounds - CWCheat workarounds.
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05-28-2018, 05:03 AM
Post: #47
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
(05-27-2018 11:18 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  I heard of it, but there are many generations of "icore" processors, each with slightly different performance and the oldest ones are pretty poor compared to the latest ones running at same clocks not to mention new ones are usually clocked higher and go above 4ghz without overclocking.

No, requirements aren't ridiculous, cpu's aren't build to render graphics, they are not optimized for it and as such it takes a really fast cpu to render game's graphics especially something like a fighting game with many layers and tiny sprites, on the other hand rendering graphics via software rasterizer makes certain effects and tricks pretty easy to display compared to hardware rendering apis where the same thing might be impossible.

And again no, this game never worked correctly outside of software rendering, the hackish option was just showing everything, it was a mess and far from "ok", just because it made the game playable for some desperate people by showing characters doesn't mean it was worth keeping, that option was on a to-be-removed list for far too long, but just like other dangerous hacks that made some people happy in the past it had to go and will never return.

You are free to use outdated PPSSPP version if using the broken hack makes you happy, PPSSPP was not made by m$ and does not include forced updates.

Edit: Oh and also you're not correct by calling it "just a PSP game", it's actually a very old game from different console generation which was at least partially emulated to run on PSP, but it does NOT work like a psp game and certainly wasn't written for PSP which causes all it's rendering problems.

>but it does NOT work like a psp game and certainly wasn't written for PSP which causes all it's rendering problems.

yeah i got that that was the main issue..problem is that i ordered a gpd win 2, which is way beyond any "latest architecture" and stuff, so if i want to play that game i need to grab one of those older builds.

Do you know which is the latest build where the game works?
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09-13-2018, 02:03 AM (This post was last modified: 09-13-2018 10:28 PM by LunaMoo.)
Post: #48
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
Just to give a perspective on PPSSPP's software rendering and as I noted earlier in this thread on how meaningless is to write an "i7" to describe cpu performance and even how similar clocked cpu's can differ a lot due to their architecture, my Ryzen 2600 at stock clocks without any overclocking whatsoever can play this game at around 58 fps just fine in software rendering and reaches at most like 40 degrees Celsius giving me a lot of room for potential overclocking(which I most likely will not do as I built this pc for silence).

   

And that's while PPSSPP is affected by issue which might potentially degrade performance of AMD cpu's in software renderer and some other things that scale based on number of detected threads as it sees way more threads than actually are, for example my cpu has 6 cores and 12 threads, for PPSSPP this becomes 12 cores and 12 threads PER CORE, reaching 144 threads which is awfuly high for a 12 thread cpu to handle.

Edit: I forgot that I can work around the issue mentioned above by manually setting number of threads and voila, set it to 12 threads and got constant 60fps in this game on 6 core/12 thread Zen+ arch cpu without overclocking.;]
   

So yeah the game can be played in software mode just fine on a modern desktop at least.

http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=6594 - Custom PPSSPP Shaders!
http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=3590&pid=117172#pid117172 - simple CE scripts to help creating CWCheats,
https://github.com/LunaMoo/PPSSPP_workarounds - CWCheat workarounds.
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11-09-2018, 01:36 AM
Post: #49
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
(07-22-2017 08:07 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  The problem is this isn't a proper PSP game, it looks like it's running inside an emulator and has as a matter of fact similar problem to menus in many psp homebrew emulators - for some graphics it's direcly writing bytes to vram which can't be detected by rendering api's. Even with hacks it's unlikely to detect that properly without making it even slower than software rendering is.
You mean it's not a native PSP game. Anything that runs on a real PSP is "proper" code.

An emulator isn't supposed to care if a program does something differently than other software, it's supposed to simulate the real hardware closely enough that anything that works on the real system runs in the emulator. If the emulator only renders the graphics properly in hardware mode when a program operates a certain way and can't detect all graphics operations unless it's using software rendering, then I'd argue that hardware rendering is itself a speed-up hack since it's designed to work only under the right conditions.

(07-22-2017 08:07 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  As I wrote in post above this is not a regression, the hackish option which was showing some things mixed with glitches wasn't displaying correct graphics in this game either, there were many reasons to remove it and just like I warned above, it finally was removed.
OK, so when people used it, it didn't render the games 100% accurately and sometimes crashed. What other problems was it causing? I don't mean what problems did it cause when people used it, I mean what problems were being caused by that option existing in the graphics settings? Was the presence of that option sitting in the menu causing problems with the rest of PPSSPP? Did it magically toggle itself on?

People used this option when there was no other way to run a game at a playable speed on their systems. By removing it, you've effectively rendered this game and potentially others, unplayable in the latest versions of PPSSPP to anyone who doesn't have a high-end system.

Help me to understand how an entirely OPTIONAL setting in the menu was causing problems even if people chose not to use it, such that it HAD to be removed.

(07-22-2017 08:07 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  Using software rendering was always the only way to display this game correctly and most likely as I explained in post above forever will be.
In other words, PPSSPP will never be a completely accurate emulator in anything other than software mode.

(05-27-2018 11:18 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  And again no, this game never worked correctly outside of software rendering, the hackish option was just showing everything, it was a mess and far from "ok", just because it made the game playable for some desperate people by showing characters doesn't mean it was worth keeping, that option was on a to-be-removed list for far too long, but just like other dangerous hacks that made some people happy in the past it had to go and will never return.
I just played a couple matches on PPSSPP 1.4.2 and other than the pause menu being partially obscured, I didn't see anything majorly wrong with it. All the characters looked like they should, the animations for their moves looked fine, the backgrounds looked normal and the game played fine.

(05-27-2018 11:18 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  You are free to use outdated PPSSPP version if using the broken hack makes you happy, PPSSPP was not made by m$ and does not include forced updates.
I get the impression that you're annoyed that people want to play a PSP release on a PSP emulator just because it doesn't fit your idea of what a proper PSP game should be and because people miss an OPTION that you personally didn't like.

(05-27-2018 11:18 PM)LunaMoo Wrote:  Edit: Oh and also you're not correct by calling it "just a PSP game", it's actually a very old game from different console generation which was at least partially emulated to run on PSP, but it does NOT work like a psp game and certainly wasn't written for PSP which causes all it's rendering problems.
Clever programmers figured out how to make the Commodore 64 do a lot of things that the designers never intended it to be able to do. These programs weren't "proper" in that they used undocumented tricks to get around the hardware's limitations. Yet C64 emulators strive to accurately reproduce these tricks because to not do so would mean that it wasn't truly emulating the original hardware.
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11-09-2018, 08:03 AM
Post: #50
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
I explained the actual problem, decision about removing game breaking options as well as the only proper way to run this game in my posts above for anyone interested.

I will however not answer personal attacks by idiots who think they will gain anything by doing so, you all can use outdated PPSSPP as long as you want, this emulator is not made by MS and does not include forced updates, that's my last post in this thread.

http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=6594 - Custom PPSSPP Shaders!
http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=3590&pid=117172#pid117172 - simple CE scripts to help creating CWCheats,
https://github.com/LunaMoo/PPSSPP_workarounds - CWCheat workarounds.
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11-10-2018, 09:35 AM
Post: #51
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
(11-09-2018 08:03 AM)LunaMoo Wrote:  I explained the actual problem, decision about removing game breaking options as well as the only proper way to run this game in my posts above for anyone interested.
No, you did not. I read every word you posted, as well as the two issue threads you linked to and nowhere in any of that did you explain how leaving that option in the menus caused any problems.

You listed what problems it caused when people USE it, but not what problems it caused just by being an OPTION.

When you install older versions of PPSSPP, that option is NOT enabled. The only time it gets enabled is if a game needs it to be playable in OpenGL/DirectX rendering modes. So the only games it caused problems for were the ones people needed to use it on.

In other words, for the majority of games that option is never enabled so it has no effect whatsoever on PPSSPP's performance or its stability. That's the entire point of an option; it's optional to use it. When not in use, it just sits there and does absolutely nothing. You have not posted a single word disputing this.

Your entire argument seems to be; "It didn't work properly when people used it, so we had to remove it to stop people from using it." That's circular logic. I want to know what problems it caused when people weren't using it because I really can't see much justification for removing an option that made some games playable if it only caused problems when it was being used on the games that weren't playable any other way in hardware mode.

Setting the Bezier/Spline quality to low causes major graphical glitches in some games, does that mean that option is going to removed as well, even though the majority of games don't need it?

(11-09-2018 08:03 AM)LunaMoo Wrote:  I will however not answer personal attacks by idiots who think they will gain anything by doing so, you all can use outdated PPSSPP as long as you want, this emulator is not made by MS and does not include forced updates, that's my last post in this thread.
Unlike your attack where you denigrated people who would prefer to play a game that functions 90% correctly than to not be able to play it at all if they don't have a system as fast as yours?

Reading your messages in the forum, I often get a vibe that you believe how you use PPSSPP is the correct way and that anyone who wants to use it differently or who would like an option that enhances their ability to play some games, is using it the wrong way. When I asked about problems assigning button presses to the mouse movements you basically argued that it wasn't supposed to be used that way. When I explained that it would enhance games by offering additional control options, you pretty much dismissed the idea because you didn't think it had merit and because you couldn't see yourself using it.

You haven't said anything in this thread to dispel that idea. When people lament an option that made Darkstalkers playable in hardware mode, even if it wasn't perfect, you dismiss them and tell them that they should be using software mode like you. Your arguments for removing the read to memory option boil down to; "It didn't work properly when people used it and I didn't like that, so we removed it." You have yet to explain how just leaving it in the menus would have hurt anything.
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12-05-2018, 08:04 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2018 02:23 PM by GebozinhoMalvado.)
Post: #52
RE: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
Hello everyone. New to this forum, so I hope I've managed to follow the structure right. As of 05/12/2018:

Title: Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower
Genre: 2D Fighting Game
Region: US
Format: ISO
Version: 1.7.4
OS: Windows 10
Compatibility: Menus (normal mode) / playable (Software Rendering mode, maybe only on more powerful PCs)
Notes: Most menus can be navigated, except for the Arcade and Training menus. Mode and Moveset menus can't be seen at any moment, Character Select screen has the
background template but character's sprites are all missing. Stage Select menu only shows the currently selected stage in the middle. VS screen is also invisible.
Ingame sprites, HUD and such can't be seen, backgrounds are incomplete. Pause menu can be seen and navigated. There are no problems in regards to sound.
Still haven't checked Chaos Tower Mode, although I'll assume there will be problems there as well, especially in regards to sprites.
---
Running the game in Software Rendering mode seems to have solve all the issues, but the emulator becomes horribly slow. Stopping the emulation in this state crashes
PPSSPP.
Before updating the emulator to 1.7, I could play the game with no problem by enabling CPU or GPU buffer rendering, except for a few bugs in the pause menu and in
the backgrounds. Nothing game-breaking though.
--------------
EDIT: got some screenshots to share. Also I re-read the previous entries (for some reason thought they were from 2013, not 2018) and would appreciate it if someone knows if PPSSPP devs are working on making Software Mode less demanding on old PCs. In case not, I'll stick with an older build even if with its own problems for Darkstalkers and play everything else on the most recent one. Without further ado, here are the screenshots I will place here for future reference.
DOUBLE EDIT: Apparently I cannot upload certain pictures for some reason. Changed file name and all but something else is up. I was able to post the most significant ones though: the first with the symbol is the background that appears where a menu should pop up, as well as the character VS screen. The second one is already in-game: there's no HUD, no character sprites and the background is incomplete. The sound however indicates that gameplay is ocurring and you can hear the characters attacking and getting hit. The screen moves as well, but no element is shown.


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